You are not connected. Please login or register

The Greatest Doom

View previous topic View next topic Go down  Message [Page 1 of 1]

1default The Greatest Doom on August 27th 2014, 6:55 am

Grim

avatar
Founder
Founder
While most topics on our forum deal with temporal things which happen and are over quite quickly (except for cleaning up the mess) this is not one of those topics.  

It is my belief that one of the greatest dooms that can occur is the eternal damnation and torment of one's soul.  Notice that I included torment in the previous sentence. This is because those thrown into hell won't be going there to have a picnic. It will be an eternity of torment and torture in the most unimaginable ways. The torture and torment in this case is not like a prison sentence which will last 2, 5, 10, 20, or 50 years, but will instead last from the time of death to forever.

Jesus had a lot to say about hell but perhaps one of the most eye opening and grim statements was what he said in the book of Mark (Mark 9:43-46)

In these verses Jesus compared eternal damnation to a worm being placed in flames of fire. Both the worm and the fire are eternal. The worm will never die, and the flames are never quenched. This of course means that the torment is ongoing forever and ever.  Even worse, they must endure this torture without God.  

There is an old saying that I would like to share with everyone at this time.  Angels carry the righteous to into heaven, but demons come for the souls of the unrighteous.


_________________
-----------------------------
☼Grim☼

it is the natural order for all things to come to an end
It is not a matter of if it is going to happen but when
ELEvent Forums
-----------------------------
View user profile

2default Re: The Greatest Doom on August 27th 2014, 8:09 pm

Peter07

avatar
Member
Member
The Bible does not teach eternal punishing. The punishment is eternal not the punishing.

View user profile

3default Re: The Greatest Doom on August 29th 2014, 2:05 am

Grim

avatar
Founder
Founder
Perhaps the wording should be that there is one punishment which entails eternal pain and torment. Idea


_________________
-----------------------------
☼Grim☼

it is the natural order for all things to come to an end
It is not a matter of if it is going to happen but when
ELEvent Forums
-----------------------------
View user profile

4default Re: The Greatest Doom on August 29th 2014, 6:23 am

Peter07

avatar
Member
Member
Revelation 20:9 KJV
(9) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

This text shows the wicked are devoured. They do not live for eternity in eternal torment.

Revelation 20:14 KJV
(14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

This text says hell is cast into the lake of fire, so what is hell in this verse? Not the lake of fire.

View user profile

5default Re: The Greatest Doom on August 29th 2014, 5:02 pm

Grim

avatar
Founder
Founder
Revelation 20:9 KJV
(9) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

This was referring to their physical body.

14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

I suppose anyone who went to hell would naturally be thrown into the final lake of fire along with all the fallen angels. For the final lake of fire the bible says that its smoke will constantly (eternally) rise.

---edit---
A quick question here. If Jesus came to give us eternal life then would it not be true to say that death would also be eternal ? Would it not also be true that the kind of death that He speaks of is not the utter destruction of the soul, but a death which involves eternal suffering and torment?

So I have to pause for a moment and ask what you believe will happen to non-believers when they die. Please do be as specific as possible so that I can better understand what you believe will happen to those who die without accepting Jesus in their heart.


_________________
-----------------------------
☼Grim☼

it is the natural order for all things to come to an end
It is not a matter of if it is going to happen but when
ELEvent Forums
-----------------------------
View user profile

6default Re: The Greatest Doom on August 29th 2014, 7:15 pm

Peter07

avatar
Member
Member
Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 KJV
(5) For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
(6) Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

View user profile

7default Re: The Greatest Doom on August 30th 2014, 1:39 pm

Firestorm

avatar
Administrator
Administrator
Would it not also be true that the kind of death that He speaks of is not the utter destruction of the soul, but a death which involves eternal suffering and torment?
Yes I believe so because...
Jesus had a lot to say about hell
He had more to say about hell than anyone else.   He paints a clear picture that any child could understand.  

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 KJV
(5) For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
(6) Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

If one is physically dead then this is 100% true but as we are created in God's image as spiritual beings then it stands to reason that the spirit never dies even if the physical body does. So then many phrases to everlasting punishment, death, and torment are made to ensure that people understand that we not only have a physical body but an eternal spirit housed inside the body.  Its like a container.

For example, let us take a vile which is full of liquid. It is impossible for a single vile to be in two places at once, however, it is completely possible for the vile to be in one place and the liquid inside it to be poured out and be somewhere else.  

Like the vial which contains 2 distinct parts my  belief teaches that a person is made up of 2 parts.  The physical body, and its spirit.
The physical body would be like the vial which contains the essence of what ever is on the inside (be it good or bad) . So long as the vile is intact the liquid will  stay in the vile until it is either poured out or the vile is broken in which case the liquid then comes out. At this point is possible for the vile to be on the ground and broken while the liquid inside may be evaporated into the air or absorbed into the ground.  This physically separates them as one will be on the ground while the other will be in the air.  So it is with death.


_________________
  sunny  Firestorm  sunny  
View user profile

8default Re: The Greatest Doom on September 1st 2014, 7:50 am

Peter07

avatar
Member
Member
The Bible is plain in that text, we should not put our understanding into it but should accept it as it reads. The dead do not know anything. Here is another passage.

John 11:11-14 KJV
(11) These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
(12) Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
(13) Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
(14) Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Jesus here refers to death as a sleep. If Lazarus is in heaven and came down again at the call of Christ then he would have complained. If he did not know anything while in the grave then it puts a different picture. To believe in an eternal hell makes God out to be worse than Satan when you think about it. Satan has painted this picture of God and twists scripture to change peoples image of the character of God.

Politicians do it all the time slander the character of their opponent.

View user profile

9default Re: The Greatest Doom on September 1st 2014, 3:35 pm

Grim

avatar
Founder
Founder
To believe in an eternal hell makes God out to be worse than Satan when you think about it.
Well it might make him look bad to some but before I debate this thought I have a question:

Where does satan and the fallen angels go at the end of time ?

Please include as many verses as possible.


_________________
-----------------------------
☼Grim☼

it is the natural order for all things to come to an end
It is not a matter of if it is going to happen but when
ELEvent Forums
-----------------------------
View user profile

10default Re: The Greatest Doom on September 2nd 2014, 3:15 am

desertdweller


New Member
New Member
We are not beings having a spiritual experience, rather we are spirits having a mortal experience.

View user profile

11default Re: The Greatest Doom on September 2nd 2014, 9:51 pm

Firestorm

avatar
Administrator
Administrator
To believe in an eternal hell makes God out to be worse than Satan when you think about it.
If there was not en eternal hell it would make the point of Jesus dying on the cross and the new covenant rather void.

I now turn to the book of Luke chapter 16, verses 19-31

19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day.
20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores
21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.
24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.
26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father’s house,
28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ “    

Throughout the entire bible there is the common understanding that after death of the physical body occurs that the spirit of a person continues to live and does so in a conscious state.  

Under the old covenant  those who are righteous were placed in upper hell where they were not tormented whereas those who were unrighteous (as depicted in the quoted verses) were placed in lower hell in a place of torment.

Under the new covenant those who are righteous gain immediate access to heaven upon death.  Those who are not righteous under the new covenant have refused the new covenant and fall under the law of the old covenant which happens to entail the full weight of the pain and suffering of the law.

So how does one become righteous in the sight of God?  The answer is to simply accept that Jesus died for you.


_________________
  sunny  Firestorm  sunny  
View user profile

12default Re: The Greatest Doom on September 2nd 2014, 10:18 pm

Xerneas

avatar
Dedicated Member
Dedicated Member
i agree with firestorm on this one. hes right. i would gladly accept that Jesus died for me.


_________________
to all things there is new knowledge wither by mortals or not. and to all things there is a end.

regards Xerneas.
View user profile

13default Re: The Greatest Doom on September 3rd 2014, 1:33 am

Grim

avatar
Founder
Founder
We are not beings having a spiritual experience, rather we are spirits having a mortal experience.

I like the way you put this. Its a very down to earth way of putting it.


_________________
-----------------------------
☼Grim☼

it is the natural order for all things to come to an end
It is not a matter of if it is going to happen but when
ELEvent Forums
-----------------------------
View user profile

14default Re: The Greatest Doom on September 11th 2014, 5:44 am

Peter07

avatar
Member
Member
The parable of the rich man and Lazarus is just that a parable. Teaching in parables was common in those times.

Grim wrote:
To believe in an eternal hell makes God out to be worse than Satan when you think about it.
Well it might make him look bad to some but before I debate this thought I have a question:

Where does satan and the fallen angels go at the end of time ?

Please include as many verses as possible.

Malachi 4:1 KJV
(1)  For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

Satan is the root, those that follow him are the branches.



Last edited by Grim on September 11th 2014, 8:54 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : posts merged)

View user profile

15default Re: The Greatest Doom on October 12th 2014, 6:20 pm

Grim

avatar
Founder
Founder
Well if they are going to burn in an oven that sounds like there is actually a hell.

So then shall the branches have a less punishment than the tree or the root ?
It says in the verse you quoted that they shall burn like stubble.  As we all know, when stubble burns the flame literally appears to engulf it. But this is a case where every part of the tree is thrown into it - the tree, the root, and the branches.

Now it may have been created for the devil and his angels but hell has enlarged itself to include humans when they fell at the beginning of time.   This is because when Adam chose to follow Eve and take of the apple he gave the devil authority over him which placed man below him in the authority structure and thus the same judgement fell upon man.  
This is the reason for Jesus dying.  To wipe our sins away so that we may have eternal life, and not eternal pain (aka death).
When the Bible speaks of life and death of the spirit, it usually refers to the quality of the afterlife.  As in those who have eternal life will have peace, happyiess, and joy, whereas those who rejected Christ will get their just reward of eternal pain and torment (death).

Short version - we were all headed there after Adam ate the apple but God made a sacrifice which not only placed us above the angels, but made us his sons and daughters.
This part of this post gives me goosebumps amazed

--------------edit----------------
I wanted to add this little part to the post.  Regardless of whether one believes in a literal hell or whether they believe that the person simply goes to the grave and then is utterly destroyed they both spell the greatest doom there is.  In fact, although most do support and believe that there is a literal hell, what Peter is saying may be considered by some to be a far worse punishment than the belief which is commonly accepted because it would be complete and utter destruction.


_________________
-----------------------------
☼Grim☼

it is the natural order for all things to come to an end
It is not a matter of if it is going to happen but when
ELEvent Forums
-----------------------------
View user profile

16default Re: The Greatest Doom on January 4th 2015, 4:25 pm

Xerneas

avatar
Dedicated Member
Dedicated Member
imagine that. i can think of over two hundred billion greatest doom things. of course no one else knows that i can think of many ways of how someone is doomed or otherwise. i am very wide opened to many ways of ideas and such. i dare say. i could think of the more horrid greatest doom. not saying what it is though.


_________________
to all things there is new knowledge wither by mortals or not. and to all things there is a end.

regards Xerneas.
View user profile

17default Re: The Greatest Doom on January 15th 2015, 3:51 am

Grim

avatar
Founder
Founder
You are not the only one. Hollywood has made like 5 movies where people cheated death only to be killed in the order they would have died. The name of the movie was "Final Destination"..


_________________
-----------------------------
☼Grim☼

it is the natural order for all things to come to an end
It is not a matter of if it is going to happen but when
ELEvent Forums
-----------------------------
View user profile

18default Re: The Greatest Doom on January 17th 2015, 1:29 pm

Xerneas

avatar
Dedicated Member
Dedicated Member
you reap what you sole. that is the way i see it anyway. there are many other horrid ways to die besides what one can think. i think outside the box on this and many other things which gives me a advantage providing me with tons or even billions of things to come up with. people who think inside the box wont get what i can imagine or think about. so put it simple. i can think of ways to die that no one who thinks in the box can.


_________________
to all things there is new knowledge wither by mortals or not. and to all things there is a end.

regards Xerneas.
View user profile

19default Re: The Greatest Doom on February 3rd 2015, 5:06 pm

Peter07

avatar
Member
Member
The Bible says God is love. How could God be love if He is going to burn and torture people for all eternity? What parent wants to see their children suffer? The Bible says the wicked will be burned up they will not suffer and be tortured for all eternity.

View user profile

20default Re: The Greatest Doom on February 5th 2015, 1:08 pm

Grim

avatar
Founder
Founder
Trying to figure this one out is a simple one for me. Lets look at that from another angle Peter:

Parents are suppose to be loving. How can a parent in their right mind spank or discipline their children in any way for wrong doing? I mean What parent wants to see their children suffer?

I won't rant about the consequences of not disciplining ones child but I believe this holds the answer to your question my friend.


_________________
-----------------------------
☼Grim☼

it is the natural order for all things to come to an end
It is not a matter of if it is going to happen but when
ELEvent Forums
-----------------------------
View user profile

21default Re: The Greatest Doom on February 14th 2015, 5:46 pm

Peter07

avatar
Member
Member
When we disipline our children do we do it constantly or for a short time? The Bible nowhere teaches an eternally burning hell.

View user profile

22default Re: The Greatest Doom on February 15th 2015, 2:40 pm

Grim

avatar
Founder
Founder
You do make an interesting point.  
But there is a vast difference between flesh and spirit.  Flesh can only take so much, but the spirit is not limited by the flesh. It can be tormented for an eternity and still exist.  

But what is it that we who believe are offered?   Eternal life.  What is the sinner promised?  Eternal death Question  

If life is to be in heaven singing  and praising God, then what would death be? Would it not be fair to say that those who reject His gift would then be given the exact opposite in exact proportions?


_________________
-----------------------------
☼Grim☼

it is the natural order for all things to come to an end
It is not a matter of if it is going to happen but when
ELEvent Forums
-----------------------------
View user profile

Sponsored content


View previous topic View next topic Back to top  Message [Page 1 of 1]

Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum